(Moved from the old site)
Originally posted by Emelia on 05/14/02,

This is a topic I've been thinking about for a while, and I thought I'd open it up to the group for discussion:
I've noticed a lot of questions here about low carb versions of high carb foods - breads, tortillas, desserts, pastries, gravies, potatoes, chips, crackers, etc. There is nothing wrong with these questions - we're used to these foods and it's natural to want to replace them.

What I'm finding, however, is I do better on this WOE when I'm NOT looking for substitutions, but rather changing what I'm eating altogether. In other words, I don't use any low carb breads/breadings/pastries etc. I did buy the cookies advertised on the left, but as a rule, I'm not searching for LC cookie recipes. I'm not looking for a way to have sandwiches. I'm not looking for a way to fry breaded foods. I'm not looking for a way to have the foods I used to have.

Why? Because those foods got me 130 pounds overweight in the first place.
So I wonder -- is LC success partly contingent upon changing the whole scope of foods we eat? Are we doing ourselves a service by finding substitutions so we don't feel deprived, or are we doing more of a service by changing the foods we eat?

I'm not sure I have the answer to this...I'm curious to hear what others have to say.
Emelia

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Donna Weaver posted 05-14-2002
Emilia,

I'm not very good at explaining the way I think and feel in written words but I will try hard on this topic.
I agree with you that kiss is the better way to go and that we should all strive to get to that woe, but we are a nation of ppl who want to be gratified now. I know for me that I have a lot of changing to do, but I also know, from experience, that I don't change my ways very well. I have to work at it constantly and in small ways first. So the substitutions are my way of living with the new woe till I can make those changes. I have come far in the 6 months I have been doing this. I started out with thousands of carbs a day not just hundreds. I'm down to 20 or less. That alone is a huge change. I've had to modify the Atkins approach because of food allergies (allergic to dairy and don't know yet what else, we are testing). So that is another huge change not easy to live with when it is a major catagory in this woe. For me variety in my foods is a big "need" as I've always cooked and baked. It's how I was raised and I've loved the experimenting. I guess it's a hobby that I don't want to give up. It's a part of who I am. I is a change that will be slow. That doesn't mean it will never happen. In the mean time I do the best I can and am thankful that the option of substitutions is available, otherwise I might not be this far along this woe.
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Donna
270/231/130
Nov.10,2001

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jraudio posted 05-14-2002 01:44 PM

I don't think Emelia is suggesting KISSing, per se. I think she is talking about rethinking what and how we eat. I know that part of my success this time around is in NOT finding substitutes for breads, cookies, etc. I do indulge in sugar free / low-carb chocolate, but due to the maltitol I force myself to strictly ration my chocolate. However, it would be too easy for me to overindulge in cookies or breads, and it's just a short step for me from indulging in LC cookies and breads, to justifying an indulgence in the "real thing." As a result, I pack my lunches for work, and they are usually dinner-style entrees: protein (meat) with one or two vegetables. I also pack cheese and SF Jello for snacks. This is very different from the sandwich, banana and cookies I used to eat for lunch. It is possible, albeit a bit harder, to satisfy the need for instant gratification on a LC WOE. You just have to get creative.
JRJ
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Restarted 1/7/02
214/184/160 or lower
Size: 18/12-14/?
5'6" female

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chamnem posted 05-14-2002
I agree with JRJ. I have found it much easier to stick with this WOE, as I've phased out the substitutions that I started with. I also know that for me, a little leads to a lot, leads to the end of the diet, so totally changing the way I eat seems to be the smartest thing to do. I have had NO cravings for the past two months, which is when I stopped trying to fit LCing into my old way of eating. Now I really enjoy eating this way, and have no desire to go back to bread and sodas, and desserts. YMMV
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Marilyn
5'10"
330/226/165?
since 10/01/01

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April Rose posted 05-14-2002
Good post Em!!
I have substituted pasta for lobster
Bread for steak
chocolate for
opps, ok, here is where I do fall off the WOE wagon.
I indulged ONE DAY A MONTH in real chocolate, really high quality, NEVER more than 10 grams.
I figure it's better than all my LC buddies turning on the evening news and finding me the subject of a high speed chase!!!
I'm allergic to much of what is in the LC products so I haven't been tempted by them.
(OK OK, I was tempted until I broke out in hives and had trouble with my asthma!!)
My big fun these days is finding LC exotic foods. I'm really into Indian right now.
I think back on how hungry, upset, unsuccesful and just plaim mean I was on other "diets" - I can't see going back to eating like that.
I basically eat what I want, when I want and the pounds are coming off. Some weeks faster than others, but I have to remind my self, this is a
WAY OF LIFE, not a pound/fat ATM!!!!
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Blessed Be
@>--,--'--


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No sugar talking posted 05-14-2002
Emelia, I think you make a very good point.I believe that over all we should try to focus on changing. But I know for me, If I'm craving something high carb., and that craving gets intense. I think a good substitute will only help keep me on track. Not to mention it's kinda fun experimenting with subs. But your point is an important one and one I think we should all strive for. Good post.
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STATS: 291/286/165 Ht.5'9" {EAT PROTEIN!}

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Thatgirl posted 05-14-2002
I think it's important to learn to eat fresh foods that are in season and to stick pretty close to the "source." That is a fairly sizeable change for most of us because before this WOE we lived on fast, packaged, boxed and frozen pseudo-foods, not fresh, whole, natural foods. Changing, and embracing this fresh way of living forevermore, I believe, is key to being successful permanently.
Having said that, the availability of lc syrups, bars, shake mixes and baking mixes can add a fun variety and range to a lc diet, if we don't get carried away. If one can do it without simply creating yet another unhealthy obsession, then these products make it possible to bake an occasional cake or batch of cookies that taste great and make a nice treat. As with most things, the key is balance.


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zip2play posted 05-14-2002
Emelia,
I agree with you completely. I didn't give up candy to spend all my time searching out the most nearly edible fake candy bar for $2.49. Nor to eat some cockamamie French toast made from ground up pork skins. Heck the originals weren't all that wonderful, why bother with their fourth cousins twice removed!
I'm finding NEW foods and to Hell with junk food replacements. When I want the old junk, I'll have it- in small quantities, infrequently, but HONESTLY.


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meg posted 05-14-2002
so is it a consensus?
we all agree with Emelia
i certainly do
but as much as i agree there are times when i want some food such as fried perch, or a small treat.
i like knowing HOW to create/experiment with these posssiblities.
i like having the ability to choose sometimes.
it helps with variety.
but i do not eat these things often. even if they are LC friendly, i treat them as a rare treat.
my .02 worth

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deb512 posted 05-14-2002
I've thought about this quite a bit, too. What exactly was the point in "giving up" the breads, pastas, fruits and starchy vegetables etc. that I used to love, and find lc replacements? Knowing myself, that would make going off this WOL very easy once I reach goal.
I'm not sure I'm explaining myself clearly.
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Deb

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Jessica_OH posted 05-14-2002

I think you are exactly correct Emelia.
I did find a substitute for chocolate, in the form of Carbolite bars. The negative is that I now crave chocolate alot more.
Also, I started drinking Diet Rite. I did much better when I didn't have one of those a night.
I think sticking with the basics is what's best. Going back to being excited that I got to add tomatoes to my salad or sunflower seeds.
For me, remembering not to be a slave to the food is important.
Substitutions should be eaten in moderation, as should the great junk foods (like Frittos!!)
Just my opinion,
Jessica
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"I use to be Snow White, but I drifted"-Mae West
225.5/188/175
Size 16/14/10

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Kumus posted 05-15-2002
I have found that I can't stray too far off the straight and narrow. I'm successful with my new WOE/WOL, because it's much healthier. Certain foods are what I call "trigger foods." I know I must absolutely avoid them at all costs. Bread, potatoes and pasta have held me hostage far too long. My emotional freedom is found in the new foods I eat and the way they are prepared.
I am being set free daily and I'm not strong enough to use replacements at this time.
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LC since 01/16/02
5'7"
341/275/185
28/22/??


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Jess posted 05-15-2002
I think meg said it best--I know I do best when I stick to protein + veggies, and most of the time I am content with this.
The longer I continue to stick to LC, the less I even think about the types of food that I no longer eat.
BUT when I want something different it is nice to know that I can try a recipe with LC substitutions. And having a piece of LC chocolate as a treat got me thru easter!

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lynnrath posted 05-15-2002 05:40 PM
I generally agree with this. I have a few things I make that "mimic" carby items (such as parmesan fried chicken) but for the most part, I think I'm better off just changing my habits.'
I also agree with Zip. There are times when I simply want something and I'll usually just have the real thing and then get right back on. It makes for slower weight loss but I feel very much in control of my eating and I feel as though I'm finding a "niche" that I can stick with forever.
Lynn

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Aiming Better posted 05-16-2002
Good answers! Survey said...
I'm not reading Emelia that your suggesting KISSing, but rather changing to a purer, gentler main stay of wholeness.
There's much to be said about that way of thinking/eating. All for the good.
For me I use a combo of things. I hope this doesn't sound like a confessional but rather a sharing of changes that do work for me.
I use particular substitutions w/my Lcing. Particular being the key word. I do use bread, tortillas, marinara weekly and occasionally Atkins products-no stone please
So far I've found these Subs not interfering with my weight loss, my attitude, or my cravings- If they did I'd let them go. Plain and simple.
There are some subs I steer clear of... or would run from.
The choc bars, or anything full of s/alcohols are a real battle. Actually I see them as a real shame. Nevermind!
Overindulgence is my concern.
Knowing that I love food I'm very mindful of amounts and trigger foods, whatever food/sub that may be.
I love LCing and I'm not near 100% Atkins, but I am sure that I love these luxurious foods. Substitution is a form of Change for me.


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Topic author: anyafire
Replied on: 07 Oct 2002 6:13:43 PM
Message:
Thanks for bumping this, Terese! That substitution/change choice has been on my mind a lot recently, since I got interested in Schwarzbein.
I'd like to think that I could learn to give up all the "substitutes", but if I'm honest, that probably won't happen. I like my tea and my coffee sweet, I like the occasional piece of toast with my eggs. DaVinci syrups, a packet of splenda or a slice of lite whole wheat bread aren't going to throw a rock in my pond, but those (by all reports) delicious Pleasantville cookies, Russell Stover s/f chocolates and Atkins brownies probably will. Better for me to be able to have half an apple some afternoon.
I think I'm actually afraid of those substitutes -- that slippery slope is pretty steep where I am, and I don't want to end up in a crumpled heap at the bottom. Maybe someday I'll be able to eat an l/c brownie with impunity, but not today.
Anya
283.5/253/155?
A new day begins where you are.


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Topic author: ca2ga2000
Replied on: 08 Oct 2002 08:17:28 AM
Message:
This is a great thread! I've been thinking about this a lot lately. About 10 days ago, I bought a loaf of LC bread. About every other day, I made either an egg salad or chicken salad sandwich with it. The problem was - I also had "real" bread 3 times during that period! Prior to this WOE, I LOVED sandwiches - I could have eaten sandwiches for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. But up until I bought the LC bread (5 weeks into this WOE), I hadn't touched bread at all. And I wasn't really missing it. The LC bread triggered something and caused me to cave on a few occasions. Luckily, it is now gone, and I haven't felt the need for any sort of bread since finishing it on Saturday. I won't be buying any more of that anytime soon.
AJ
5'7" - 28 yo female
188/179/140

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Topic author: timeforCarina
Replied on: 10 Oct 2002 01:35:19 AM
Message:
This is interesting. I use certain substitutes frequently such as flax cereal, Atkins muffins and Cheeters crackers. I also use low carb bread, tortillas and syrups occasionally. Part of the reason I make the muffins regularly is to offer a low carb option to my children and for those times when it takes too long to cook and eat eggs, or whatever. I think that they have probably slowed my weight loss to some degree, but better that than to have a hi carb food. Taking along some banana hazelnut bread to my nephews highschool graduation party helped me not to even be tempted by the two scrumptious looking cakes served.
I know myself well enough to know that low carb chocolate is a danger zone for me though and that I'll be struggling with cravings if I endulge.
I think the advent of more low carb substitutions can be a good thing as long as they are prepared with the best possible foods. Lots of fiber is a good thing too.
The nuts and bolts of this wol is without a doubt the pure protein and veggies. That is where the health of it lies, not in the substitutions.
275/228/150 as of 7/14/02
18/20
Glug. Glug. Glug.


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Topic author: Terese
Replied on: 23 Feb 2003 8:53:09 PM
Message:
well, my searching FINALLY paid off.... only took me about an hour off and on during the day.....
This one is a really good read - Hope you all think so too.

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Topic author: BC
Replied on: 23 Feb 2003 9:16:39 PM
Message:
Thanks, T. I'm really glad you found this classic post! brenda

172/105/105
LC (Zone) since 4/98
This Cowgirl's Motto: "Shoot straight, do right, saddle your own horse."

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Topic author: Poohski
Replied on: 24 Feb 2003 1:32:44 PM
Message:
Hmmmm, quite a fascinating thing to really think about. I guess I feel better about cutting the carbs out and not really finding a substitution YET. During maintenence, finding a LC sub would be a practical way to maintain your goal weight while adding a few more carbs to the diet.
LC substititions are good for someone like my BF. No matter how long I talk to him about Atkins (which I am on, he follows in his very loose way), he cheats all the time! I like to try and have him find at least LC carbs to cheat with (cottage cheese, whole wheat bread, berries). He is truly a carb addict but is really doing well in the long run (his belly is melting away, so are his thighs, I am soooooooo jelous). He really has gone from eating almost all carbs to LC, which, for him, is impressive!
Poohski

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Topic author: Roblosesweight
Replied on: 08 May 2003 07:54:51 AM
Message:
Thanks Terese!
I do better if i don't do much substituting. If i use the low carb bread i lose less that week. But if I eat naturally low carb crispbreads I lose more weight. I haven't even had the nerve to try any low carb candy since i started this woe 3 months ago. The one time i did eat samples of malitol sweetened ice cream in a low carb store I about ate everything i had in my refrigerator for the next 3 hours. I do best when i use lettuce leaves for hamburger buns and strawberries and cream for dessert. But some substituting is necessary for me. Love fajitas and low carb tortillas are necessary for that. even though if i eat more than 2 (and I have) i stall for days. The trick, for me is to plan these cheats and do it rarely. I like the once a month cheat someone posted in this thread. I can afford to only lose a pound one week if it means I can have favorite treat once a month.
Rob

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Topic author: Redell
Replied on: 08 May 2003 8:28:48 PM
Message:
I always loved to bake and enjoy trying new recipes that are lc. I don't want to substitute one kind of processed food with another kind so most of our meals consist of fresh foods. I do like variety though and use substitutes from time to time. I'm fortunate in that I can eat light bread and not crave other foods. If it causes a craving, like Rob talked about, don't eat it. Other than that, I like variety.
So you can see, I'm real conflicted about this topic. I guess what I'm getting at is moderation is the key but if substitutes become triggers, then get back and stay back to basics.
Red
7/24/02
186/125/110

What a great replay. I don't remember having seen this thread on the old board. In fact, it seems that there have been several thought provoking posts on this section of the new board. Both this one, and the "starting fresh" thread were originally started by Emelia. The prespective of the seasoned vets and their methods of living this WOL is great. Thanks for extending past just the initial weight loss problems.

Judy

180/145.5/138
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." Winston Churchill

Judy,

some of these threads are really old (2+yrs).. been moved each time we change boards.. but the info is so invaluable... we are in the process of moving some of the older threads to this board.. so you will see them crop up every now and then.

Em always has those great thought-provoking ones

Terese
LCE Member since 12/00
My LC web site

Thanks for bumping this thread, Terese. In my opinion, it speaks to a very fundamental issue for each of us here, that of intent. Whether our goal is to dramatically alter our lives, or to find ways to minimize change. Whether we want to take a whole new approach to this aspect of our lives, or seek ways to retain the status quo as much as possible.

Some people seem to embrace the idea of changing the way they eat and eliminating certain foods, while some prefer to find replacements and substitutes for the things they are accustomed to eating. And many do a combination of those approaches. Each path has its virtues and its challenges. I think the crucial thing is for each of us to be conscious of which path we're following and whether it is serving us well.

Do you think this would be a valuable thread to bump up to the Newbie's Forum? In my humble opinion, this is a vital consideration at all stages of the journey.

Sky
186/144/under 150

I agree with Sky. I don't normally lurk on this board, having at least 50 more pounds to lose, and it's just by chance that I looked in. I'm so glad I did. This thread is soooo wise. It's rather like a similar thread from Emelia where she mentioned getting into the zen of this WOE. This was something I needed to hear.

Because of where I live, the low carb alternatives to sugar and wheat laden favourites aren't available, and so I've had to keep it simple. I think this has been a very good thing, but recently I had a 'downer' where I felt I was bored with the food; I needed to get more creative. Thankfully, this mood has passed.

I think this thread should be seen by more people; it's very important. As someone says elsewhere on these boards, we can give up alcohol and cigarettes but we recovering carb addicts have to deal with food every day.

Clare
217/191/140?
Since June 2nd

I'm glad I got to revisit this thread. After 6+ months of struggling to get back on track (and sometimes being entirely derailed), I realized that LC substitutions can be just as dangerous as the real thing. The only LC treats I plan to keep in my fridge (after I finish off that sinful Edy's No Sugar Added Triple Chocolate Ice Cream) are sugar free Jello, Diet Vanilla Coke, and Fruit 2-O. Oh, and the occasional Michelob Ultra - for when I make my beer-basted pork tenderloin.

JRJ

I realize that I never commented again after writing this post 18 months ago...

...where I have come down is DEFINITELY on the side of change. Substitution gets me nowhere...the minute I think I can have LC treats or LC bread or other products, I gain because of the sugar alcohols, the wheat allergy, or the simple cravings they invoke.

I know it's a YMMV issue - but my mileage says "your new way of eating 'whole foods' is the way for you."

Cheers,

Emelia

"We can only learn to love by loving." - Iris Murdoch, Irish writer
294/208/174 LC since 25-Nov-01

Amen, Emelia.

I've tried the substitutions and I always gain. I read on these boards that others do not gain, some even lose, so I stupidly try again.

I always gain.

And the reason I gain is because of the cravings they invoke which I simply cannot fight. After ingesting low carb treats, muffins, breads, even fruit, I find myself pacing in front of the fridge like a tiger, looking for something to satiate the sugar cravings (a wise woman described it to me in just that manner and I am SO there!).

Therefore, the substitutions simply aren't worth it to me. For me, I have ti KISS or it just won't work.

April
352 / 204 / 180
5'10", large frame, size 13 shoe
www.geocities.com/aprilreinhardt

*bump* for StacyK9


http://laurelyn.home.comcast.net/lowcarb/

Ive been maintaining for 19 months.OK so its not a REALLY long time. I have chosen to change my thinking abt how I eat with very very rare use of substitutes.I just don't find that I need them.

Deborah
171/139/137

Excellent discussion

I think I fall somewhere in the middle. Whole and natural foods most of the time and an occasional LC substitute (bread, tortilla) I find I do better the more whole foods I eat.


"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
- Yoda ('The Empire Strikes Back')
Start Atkins 9.1.03
225/198/130ish
Valentine's Day Goal: 180