I've been following Atkins (or actually, "modified" Atkins) for about three years now. I started with CAD and then moved into full Atkins. I included walking everyday while I was working the 'plan.' About one year into Atkins, and after losing 12 lbs, I developed a neuroma on my foot which took my daily walks out of the picture. Since that time, I am still struggling with my foot 'condition' but I have continued with Atkins.

Here's the issue: Even though continuing with Atkins, all of my initial weight loss has returned...one lb. at a time and I am back to my original weight.

I am a "from-scratch" cook and have never been into junk food so that's not a problem. I also like the lower carbs, because I find that I don't get hungry between meals. I guess my real issue is PORTION CONTROL! I believe I eat too much protein. And THAT is what attracted me to the 40-30-30 plan.

I would like to know if any other low carbers have successfully switched to the Zone and if so, what problems did you encounter? I am NOT interested in QUICK results, only long-term success

Thanks for your input.

Donna

Hi Donna Your cooking systems sound similar to mine. I've never followed Atkins - although have lost 100 + lbs over about 2 years. Only gained back once - before I switched to portion control - so for my money - your comment here on portions is the focus (for me anyway). When I read the Zone info - I found I more or less follow this system. No - I wasn't interested in quick results either - but am convinced the portion control is my most successful approach. Happy to discuss further with you in PMs/Emails etc. I just came back to edit here - my plan encompasses all fresh and minimally processed wholegrain foods including low-fat dairy, soy, pulses, lentils, seeds, nuts, oils, low animal protein intake, vegetables, fruits etc. I use no additives, condiments, sugars or potatoes.

__________________
The fox is wild!



5'3" Maintaining 121-125
Original weight 198 +

Beachfox,

Thank you SO much for replying!!! I was really beginning to wonder if anyone had good results switching. The one thing that Atkins does NOT teach you is portion control. Imagine my surprise when just yesterday, I thought I'd weigh and enter in my dinner portion of 1/2 chicken breast with a small portion of sauce and mushrooms only to find out that what I thought was a "small" portion (in my estimate, weighing about 3-4 ozs was actually 7 ozs!!!!! When I was on Atkins, I would eat two and one half breasts so I was consuming OVER 1 lb. of chicken!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And when I entered in my quantities into my LifeForm program, I also found out that even though I "watched" what I had eaten that day, it still totalled OVER 2,000 calories! No wonder I gained all my weight back...sheesh!

Yes...it does sound that we are very similar in our approach to cooking and eating. I too, use very little processed food, bake my own low carb bread (which will NOT change) and really enjoy my fruits and veggies (I was also a vegetarian in the 70's.) I do have to admit however, I'm not crazy about low-fat anything...

Congratulations on your 100 lb success!!! That is super! When you said that you "more or less" follow this system, am I to assume that you don't keep strictly to the 40-30-30 ratio? Since I'm switching from Atkins (and all that saturated fat) I find that it's a little difficult to make the changeover. Were you coming from low-fat or low carb when you decided to change? You also said that you think the portion control is key. Do you think it was a combination of the whole "zone" concept or do you believe that portion control contributed most to your success.

Thank you again for your reply. I am just so happy to be able to pick someone's brain on this.

Donna

OH...almost forgot...I note that you are in Australia. My husband is a SUPER fan of Aussie Rules football!!! He made me tape the Premiership over the last two weeks while he as out town so he could watch the outcome. I don't think he has a favorite team, he just loves the sport!

Hi Donna and Beachfox! I?m so sorry I didn?t see your post until now. We used to have a nice Zone community here, but most seemed to have ?graduated.? That?s a good thing but I miss our conversations.

Yes, we did have people who switched from Atkins or other low carb plans and were successful! Some switched because they just weren?t losing, and some indeed, because they found the portion and insulin control inherent in the Zone to be important to success. Of course, a few found the Zone too complicated, or too restrictive and found a plan better suited to their needs.

I would suggest, based on the members? experience here, that you transition your carbs slowly, however, if you are currently consuming relatively low amount of carbs. A few members reported initial small gains if they immediately jumped to 40% carbs. Of course the 40/30/30 is really a template, a place to start, and you may find that you do better with a slightly different ratio. For example, people who are insulin resistant tend to do better with something less than 40%. But the nice thing about the Zone is that you can experiment and find out what is optimal for you.

In my case, I do a somewhat modified Zone. Here?s my story, if you are interested:

My Story
I have found that the times I?ve wandered away from the Zone (as I did earlier this year), I?ve gained. When I?m more observant I feel better and can maintain my weight.

If you have any other questions, it looks like Beachfox is a pro, and I?d also love to continue conversations here if either of you are interested. It?s great to see you both.

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Brenda,

Your story was wonderfully inspiring! I too find that the science behind the Zone to be very compelling. Although I have "upped" my carbs, and I must admit...it feels strange, I am hoping that that the increased amount won't send me into hunger. THAT, is what may send me scurrying back to Atkins. While I just seemed to be swapping the carbs for protein and fat, at least I wasn't hungry all the time. (This coming from a TRUE sugar addict!)

For me, I believe that I just have to be careful about the proportions of fruit to protein I consume. Fruit could send me into the 'Hunger Zone' while veggies don't seem to have the same effect.

You mentioned that I could experiment and find what's best for me. Does that mean that perhaps 30% carbs, 30% protein and 40% fat (while still staying within my target calories (blocks) per day) could work? Technically, I'm using the Daoust 40-30-30 plan (simplified Zone) and today, while keeping my calories at the target amount, I had to consume 4 oz. raw cauliflower, 4 oz. raw carrots IN ADDITION to 1/2 apple just to get my carbs up there! Don't get me wrong...I really like my raw veggies and absolutely LOVE that I can have more fruit, but it was lunchtime and just two hours afterward, I was starting to get hungry again. It's been so long, I find this to be an extremely disturbing feeling!

Any thoughts or pointers? Thanks for your reply.

Donna

Thanks so much for the link to your story Brenda - its great to be able to be motivated and inspired by others! Looking forward to talking to you both more! I hope the following isn't too much info ( sorry - I'm a VIRGO -so I'm supposed to be like this!)

Donna - definitely the controlled portions and the balance of the food groups has been the key to my final outcome. I know this because I've never been successful in getting back to this weight for 40 years until I restricted portions and balanced the food groups. I suppose I didn't actually graduate from any plan INTO Zone - it was more or less a matter of reading Zone here and thinking - o wow - that's very similar to what I do!! I had a lot of problems with hunger on all sorts of other plans - UNTIL - I read that its not the fat the makes you fat! I had ALWAYS restricted myself with dairy foods and didn't use them and instead went for high protein - but it was animal protein and I didn't understand ANY nutritional or dietary facts. So - I was really just following a book - and making totally uninformed decisions about my food. Basically - I was low carbing, high animal protein with uncalculated portions/calorie control. Somewhere in the back of my mind too - was the fact, that unlike quite a lot of stories - I was never a chunky child or young woman - indeed - my problem was I was too thin! Always! So - I began to reason - that somewhere I had a metabolism that would respond to lifestyle patterns appropriate for me! So - it was on that basis that I went seeking information. It has been my experience that I am successful following the approximate pathway:
* 3 animal protein weekly (90grms each)
* low or no fat dairy or soy (controlled portions and I usually split portions so that I usually have only 2 serves daily) the dairy is restricted to fetta/shaved parmesan/ricotta cheese and natural yoghurt.
* definitely restrict wholegrain carbs - for daily example 1 serve wholegrain soy bread & 1 rye wrap - I also have approx 1 tablespoon mixed wheat germ/phyllum husk/LSA mix/natural bran - but I don't count veggie/fruit (or any other) carbs at all
* At least 4 veg serves daily (limit avocado to half about twice weekly)
no more than 2 fruit serves daily
* sometimes a sweet comprised of one or 2 dates
* limit nutbutters - no more than 1 teaspoon daily

I use lots of fresh herbs and pure spices. I also make all my own Baba Ganoush, Hoummous and Pesto. I use a slow release vitamin and mineral tab daily. Lots of water/1 pot green tea and 1 pot rooibos daily.

If I'm using pulses and want them to function as protein - I ensure I have a dairy & oil/nut serve with them in the meal. I try to include each food group at each meal.

I get at least 1 hour of exercise daily - which might not be an option for you. I mix it up with stretches, ab crunches and hydraulic resistance and of course, long walks.

Apart from those few basic rules - I just enjoy life! I eat most things I want - never have cravings. I have found since dropping back to 2 fruit serves and having more veg serves I haven't even had the munchies!

With regards to feeling hungry - personally - in my earlier stages - I used a small serving of lowfat dairy - such as ricotta spread on a small fresh pear of a nut butter spread on an apple. Pesto on veg is good and I sometimes used a small soy mayo serve spread on veg too. Sometimes, in the early days - I think I panicked in case I was going to be hungry! I found a glass of water helped there. Nowdays - before I go to my fitness studio - I usually stop off at an outdoor juice bar and grab a ginger and carrot juice - and I don't get the munchies on that.

I believe its really a matter of trying things out - and see what suits you Donna - because we're all different. I do have a quite useful spreadsheet with most foods and their calorie counts on - if you need anything like that - just PM me and I'll send it.

For me - its more a matter of focusing on my wellbeing, heathly aging (includes weight management through sensible food and exercise) maintaining a postive outlook on life, making sound and rationale decisions based on best information - and enjoying simple, fresh foods.

Aussie Rules - gahhhh!!!! My step-in-laws are here this week - YES - they watched THE game yesterday - to be honest - I have no idea why men don the stretchie short pants, race onto a paddock to hug and slap other men on the bottom when one kicks the ball between those posts at either end of the paddock!!! However, I'm given to understand this is vital viewing for those people who follow such things and much enjoyment is derived from the pastime!

__________________
The fox is wild!



5'3" Maintaining 121-125
Original weight 198 +

Oh, so nice to see both of your replies.

Beachfox, what you?ve outlined is a wonderfully healthy lifestyle and I certainly commend you for all you?ve accomplished. Congratulations! Yes, many aspects of your way of life would be quite in keeping with the Zone principles. As a matter of fact, I would do well to emulate more of your excellent choices. I confess to being an indifferent cook who hates to shop for groceries, so I do make some compromises to ?convenience.? By the way, my DH is a Virgo so I?m quite familiar with their nature, at least as expressed by the X chromosome

Donna, I?ll try to answer your questions simply, but I?m afraid I may have a little Virgo somewhere in my chart, even though I?m a Libra! I don?t know if you have any Zone books since you are more following the Dousts..... I must say that the first Zone book did a good job of explaining the science, but a lousy job explaining how to put it into action. Mastering the Zone is much better at that, even though half the book is filled with recipes.

Anyway, in Mastering the Zone (Chapter 7), Sears gives an explanation of how to try to assess what has happened when you get hungry too soon after a meal. And trust me, nobody wants hunger! Anyway, if you have significant hunger within a couple of hours after a meal, here are the possibilities:

If you are hungry and also feel as though you don?t have excellent mental focus, you?ve had too much carbohydrate relative to protein. What has happened is that you?ve produced too much insulin, which has driven your blood sugar down. (THis is most common, even though we sometimes don't even realize we're not firing on all cylinders.)

If you are hungry but still have sharp mental focus, you?ve eating too much protein relative to carbohydrates. Your blood sugar levels are adequate for good brain function but there is not enough insulin crossing the blood-brain barrier to interact with the hypothalamus to prevent the synthesis of neuropeptide Y, which stimulates appetite. (More rare, at least for most people I know. I?d be willing to bet the extra carbs you ate had to get up to your 40% was the culprit. )

So in general, Sears? idea of how to modify the Zone relies on finding your own best balance between carbs and proteins and leaving the fat percentage alone. This is the way I worked it for a couple of years. I will say, however, that there are quite a few iconoclast Zoners out there who do better when they increase fat levels and keep carb levels lower. There was even a great private bulletin board where we discussed those things, which unfortunately no longer exists. So, yes it?s certainly possible to have a range of ratios including fat being the highest (as long as you are getting adequate protein). Really, it?s such an individual thing that I do advise keeping some records of your blocks/percentages and how you feel after each meal so that you start getting a sense of what ratios work best. Indeed you may find you do well within a range of percentages, as I do.

Anyway, the goal is to not let ourselves get physically hungry I will say that I love fruit, but find it problematic?.I do much better having fruit only as part of a meal, rather than as part of a snack. If I have fruit for dinner, for example, I may also have a salad, but no other carbs. I also now generally to stick to berries, melons, applies, or citrus. Other fruits tend to hit me too fast. Now that?s me, and you may react differently.

I know how very dangerous hunger is. My advice, if you do have significant hunger after a meal, is to go ahead and have a small (1block or so) snack to get your blood sugar levels on the right track again.

I hope I?ve answered some of your questions, Donna, and perhaps I?ve stimulated more. (See told you there was some Virgo rubbing off on me). I hope I?ll be able to answer any others along the road.

And Beachfox, hang around! I need some inspiration to clean up my choices. I?ve just gotten back on track after a hiatus (what was I thinking!) and could use a good example.

Oh, I know nothing about Aussie rules, but have certainly seen my share of butt patting under US rules

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Some extremely interesting points there Brenda - thanks so much. I must say - I've never bought the Zone book - as I was already well along with my journey before I saw the concept. Yes, those facts make sense and looking at my patterns - they are certainly valid.

Really - the whole concept of designing and following a plan and achieving a successful outcome - then maintaining one's desired weight is extremely interesting.

Recently (and this is not only related to Zone plans) - after I had reached my goal weight - I was concerned about excess wrinkling of the skin. OK - I know I'm 63 - but - still and all - I didn't think it should have been that bad. And as it happens - I was correct. I was flushing through too much fluid and was dehydrating. When I first noticed it I thought I had lost too much weight - but then I realised it was dehydration. Luckily I didn't put any actual lbs back on before I got the 'learning'! When I first began this WOE - I seriously retained fluid - now of course, my metabolism is fine. This is something I should have picked up on earlier. However, no real harm done. I've simply stopped taking fluid reduction aids (and of course, the wrinkling has gone)

My point here is - there will be always something I can learn!!! Certainly Zone discussions are much closer to my WOE than any other plans. So I'm delighted to get this discussion going - I think it will prove very productive! Many thanks Donna and Brenda for your input.

__________________
The fox is wild!



5'3" Maintaining 121-125
Original weight 198 +

Thank you both for your input. I think getting back into LOW FAT anything will be the hardest part. I just don't have enough of that here in the house at the present time to stave off my hunger. I'll get shopping tomorrow and make sure I'm stocked!

Today, while trying to scrounge around for a snack, I figured that I would have some celery with peanut butter. Well, that didn't work out - TOO much fat in the PB. So after I think it over, I figured I'd scramble an egg plus one egg white and have that with the celery and nix the PB. STILL too much fat! Well, I was desperate so I ate the scrambled eggs and celery. Less than one hour later, I'm STARVING and I've got a small headache!!!!! Obviously, something's off!

Too much fat; not enough carbs; too much protein...geez!

I have to say, since I know that fruit doesn't hold me, and veggies don't hold me, I think I might be in trouble here. Perhaps my body's just letting me know that it doesn't like all the carbs. I'm not even worried about weight gain at this point, but I sure don't like being hungry like I was ALL DAY today!

Hmmmmm...perhaps I need to rethink this.

Donna

Donna, why are you saying "too much fat?" I'm not understanding, I'm afraid. Really, the Zone is not a low fat diet, it's a moderate fat plan, and as I mentioned above, some people do quite well with figures over 30%.

I think perhaps you are missing a key element of the Zone, and one I thought was covered by the Dousts, but maybe not....

For every meal or snack, the Zone recommends you have carb, protein, and fat in a ratio that works for you. In your example of the peanut butter and celery, you were having fat, but just a wee tad of protein and a smidge of carb---but not in a balanced ratio, not 40-30-30 or anywhere near it. I know because there's not enough carb or protein in peanut butter to be a balanced snack, AND you'd have to eat about three tons of celery. In your example of the egg and celery, same kind of thing. You were getting some protein and fat, but not nearly enough carb, if you want to take a Zone approach. See, as you add protein and carb into the mix, the percentage of fat in that snack goes down, ok? No wonder you were starving!

No, fruit or veggies by themselves don't hold me a minute! But when I have say, a nice veggie omelette, with a tsp of almond butter on a slice sprouted grain bread, I'm set for hours!

So it's not the goal to have good percentages by the end of the day. It's the goal to have good percentages with every meal and snack, and the day takes care of itself. But if I've missed your point, please explain further, ok?

I admit I do prefer to buy low or non-fat dairy items (unless they are the "artificial" ones), so that I can enjoy moderate amounts of other fats which mean more to me, such as nut butters, real butter, olives, coconut oil and olive oil for cooking, etc. I prefer to buy lean meats for the same reason. But truly, I don't live a "low" fat life. Every macronutrient is important to health. Beachfox created her own plan that works for her, using the food choices that work for her, and I applaud her--but that may not be right for you. Also remember that she's been at this a while and has returned her metabolism to normal. I've modified the Zone to work best for me, too, and I don't have to think much about it any more, although I gotta say, I do best when I track everything I eat and use portion control. I have a bad history with food and need the accountability.

So Donna, if you go back to the Doust's book, I would imagine if there are recipes or meal plans, you would see there is adequate protein, fat, and carb in each one, and snacks should be no different. Don't get discouraged too quickly, Donna, ok?

Beachfox, you make a great point about water and wrinkles. After looking in the mirror, I'm thinking I really need to up my consumption quite a bit!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Brenda,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I do tend to get discouraged. But the fact that I so seamlessly meshed with Atkins and made the transition from "regular" eating to low carb without missing a beat, I think that perhaps I'm just expecting too much. And yes...The Daoust's book does cover the carb/protein/fat ratios with their pre-made menus, but their snacks "so totally suck" since most are based on yogurt and fruit smoothies (talk about getting a headache!)

Also, remember that I am coming off of FULL FAT EVERYTHING! Anything other than full fat seems like LOW fat. So when I finished the book and decided that I was going to try this, I thought I would be OK until I went shopping. WRONG!!! I got caught a little off-guard when I got so hungry. While on Atkins I NEVER used to snack because I was NEVER hungry between meals. And it was no wonder since I was consuming about 3,000 calories a day, most of which came from fat! Now I have to plan a snack. That is a bit different.

Also, trying to the work the Fat Flush part of their plan, the calories are low. For my height and weight, I am supposed to consume about 1300 calories; 200 at breakfast, 200 at snack, 400 at lunch, 500 at dinner. Breakfast is a breeze since I do high fiber cereal every day with nuts, protein powder, flax seed and LC milk. Lunch seems less of a problem since I can slap together a wrap sandwich that is fairly substantial with lettuce, tomato, mayo, lean deli meat and 1 oz. cheese. But fitting a 200 calorie snack in with fat and carbs and protein has been the issue since I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hungry in the afternoon. I'm still playing with the dinner menus and so far it's been OK, but by the time I eat dinner, I'm ravenous!

I am fortunate that I have a program that allows me to put in my food choices at each meal and then tells me what percentage of the calories come from carbs/protein/fat. THAT'S how I knew my percentages were off.

Like most everyone else, I did the low fat/no fat thing too and gained weight. Then I did the vegetarian thing, (on the advice of my physician who said I had to lower my cholesterol) and gained MORE weight in addition to my cholesterol going UP! I tried CAD and it worked and then moved into Atkins which I have stuck with for about 3 years now. I'm really NOT a quitter, maybe just lacking a little bit of patience while I take in the learning curve.

I'm going to give this a 'go' for a while longer and see what happens. I'm also returning to moderate walking each day so that should also help to move things along. As long as my foot holds out, I should be getting out every day.

I apologize for all the "whining" and "explaining". I really appreciate your input and I'll keep you posted on my progress. Thanks again!

Donna

O gosh yes Donna - don't think its automatic success to follow a specific plan of anyone elses. When I did that I got into a terrible mess and yes, I've been at this for several years and my metabolism is totally different now from my early beginnings of planned WOE programs. Actually - come to think about it - I was VERY hungry in those early days. Really - none of this is easy in the early days. It did take time for me (years in fact!) However, it was worth it and it was worth taking the time to work through my options too - I must admit I did sometimes get VERY confused and wished I could just follow a set plan like everyone else seemed to do! But my later understandings on this forum showed me that lots of people need to tweak the plans a little for their own best options. I just tended to read what others were doing and if something didn't seem right - I tried other's hints and options to see what suited me.

Ha! I wish the water had COMPLETELY solved my wrinkle problem Brenda - unfortunately - there are QUITE a few still there - but I like the other effects too much to change my WOL now!

__________________
The fox is wild!



5'3" Maintaining 121-125
Original weight 198 +

Beachfox,

Brenda is right...I think we could all benefit from your wisdom regarding our choices. It sounds like you've tweaked the plan so that it fits YOU! That is what I'm striving for. NO...I don't hope to see instant success, but that hunger thing really sets me on edge. I just HATE IT!

So in an effort to avoid it this week, while I"m adjusting to being in the Zone, I'm going to make up a shopping list today and STOCK my pantry and fridge. Hopefully, I'll be better prepared for the upcoming week.

You've both been so helpful. Thanks a bunch for keeping me on the straight path to success.

By the way Beachfox, do you think that being exposed to the Australian sun for many years has something to do with the wrinkle situation? I hear that it can be brutal! I'm not much of a sun worshipper, actually, I'm the only one in my group of friends that is absolutely "white" during the middle of summer and at 51 I've increased my own usage of moisturizer to try and "stave off" those dang things! I know their coming so there's no use trying to prevent them now! You see with age DOES come wisdom!!!

Donna

Hahhhaa!!! Sun, Aussie climate and wrinkles!!! Well - I guess that's the common understanding Donna. Actually - no - I don't think so in my case - I have quite dark skin. My father was an indigenous Australian - and we're quite dark skinned. In fact, I cannot use sunlotions - I am allergic to them. No - this was a separate issue. I've never had a problem with wrinkles even at my age until I lost the weight and even though they are still there to some extent now - my beautician thinks its a combination of having stretched the skin when I was so heavy and then too much fluid flushing. Now I've got a new water filtration system and the water molecules are smaller - so the body absorbs them better and I've reduced the diuretics so the wrinkles do look less.

Brenda knows a lot more about the scientific approach to nutrition than I do - and she has given (us both) some great points here. I must confess - my plan is probably pretty simplistic compared with others who know what they are doing on the scientific front. I've done a lot of research on the food groups and prescribed intake for my age group. Healthy aging is my BIG thing (as opposed to anti aging) but I'm certainly not as informed on the scientific front as Brenda and others on the forum. Stocking your pantry is excellent - because then you can plan your menus and that's been most helpful for me. I think too - sometimes the hungries are a matter of being scared we'll get hungry!! It took me quite a long time to trust the values in the food of the smaller portions. Its not how much I eat - but the value of the food and the functions it performs for my body. In other words - how well it fuels my activities. Once I began to trust that premise and trust my plan - the hungries got less. My blood sugar was a big problem - which is really my metabolism not working properly I guess. Now that it works correctly - it is able to effectively use the fuel I provide for it.

Have a great day (no hungries allowed!)

__________________
The fox is wild!



5'3" Maintaining 121-125
Original weight 198 +

Oh Beachfox...I am soooooooooo embarrassed!:o Of course with your ancestry, the sun certainly would NOT be a problem! I think I've got to stop listening to the news! They certainly do play up the Australian sun here!

Yes, I can only imagine that loosing a whole lot of weight would add up to more skin. I know about this from this "baby belly" I've been carrying around since I gave birth 26 years ago...wow...has it really been that long? Anyway, I gave birth to the baby, but the "belly" remained. No amount of diet -OR- exercise has gotten rid of it. Just a big hunk of stretched out, loose skin. OK...I'm sure that's WAY more information than you wanted!

I just got back from shopping and I think the choices I made were wise ones. We will see if all is still well at the end of this week. One thing you said makes sense to me; I think it's my "fear of being hungry" that gets me and not actually being hungry! With that said, I'm taking a closer look at the difference between being satisfied and being full. Since portion control is such an issue with me, I think I've actually forgotten that there's a difference!!!

In time, I hope I will also learn to trust the plan and allow things to go the way they will. I'll try not to whine so much and just stick to the plan. Hopefully I'll have something positive to report at the end of the week.

All for now,

Donna