BC & Sharron, you guys may have really hit on something here with the adrenal fatigue/hydration/electrolyte issue. I never heard of adrenal fatigue before, but did an immediate search after reading your posts, and WOW does it ever resonate with me.

With the exception of the past 5 years, I have been on diuretics practically all my life, having been diagnosed with high blood pressure as a little kid. In those days, they really didn't have any idea what else to do, and I certainly didn't know any better. It has long been my belief that getting on diuretics before my body was fully developed, and being on them for so long, permanently affected the way my system functions. In a nutshell, my body acts as if I'm on diurectics even when I'm not, and I've always had to keep a close eye on my potassium levels.

Nowadays I'm off diurectics, but I do take (and need) a heavy beta blocker, which acts primarily by suppressing my adrenal glands. Doesn't it make sense that this would cause great conflict for my poor little adrenals and tire them out? They try to do their thing, and keep getting shut down. Add to that the naturally diuretic nature of low-carbing and what may be over-hydrating on my part, and the picture all starts to come together, doesn't it? Hmm.

Sharron, am I correct in thinking that adrenal fatigue is diagnosed by an evaluation of symptoms rather than a specific test? I will do some more reading about this, and discuss it with my cool new doc when I go back for my follow-up visit next month.

As for my gentle Atkins-to-Zone conversion, I'm still waiting for my books to arrive, but am taking Omega-3s and am making an effort to balance everything I eat. This basically means cutting back a bit on the fat and protein, as I'm not ready to add in new foods yet and am sticking with veggies, nuts, and berries as my carb sources till I get the hang of the combinations. I am definitely going to have to take a look at my overall intake at some point, as I am currently consuming the equivalent of about 18-20 blocks a day instead of the recommended 13. Bless the metabolic advantage!

Anyway, I am looking at taking several months to make these changes, and I'm going to be very meticulous about it, so as not to lose any ground or find myself not knowing what happened if I do encounter some sticking points. Only improvements allowed from here on out! As a general time frame, I am thinking that if all goes well, I should be pretty firmly in The Zone by Christmas.

Lots to learn in the meanwhile, and thank you SO VERY MUCH for thinking about my situation and posting your ideas, because this information could truly be life-altering for me. You guys rock.

Sky
Atkins since 8/02
196/144/under 150

Wow! It does sound like we are onto something!

I had 2 different adrenal function tests done -- both were done by collecting saliva samples. I don't know if an MD will do such test -- mine were done by NDs. Another doc somewhere along the way just said that it was an issue, no testing done.

A simple clue is if you stand up and get dizzy, your adrenals are stressed.

Did you find the links for the watercure? If not, go to www.curezone.com and look for the bold links to water cure and salt cure. The type of salt one consumes is extremely important with adrenal fatigue I've found. On that same note, my sis has been on diurhetics most of her adult life and also off salt. Once she added sea salt into her diet her blood pressure came down of its own accord! If she has a lot of table salt (like in a restaurant or something like that) it goes right back up.

You are very wise to go slowly. Maybe that is why I tend to struggle? I am a "whole hog" kind of person, rather than meticulous and deliberate. Actually, I know why I'm struggling and it has little to do with my diet in any real sense, and I'm working to correct that issue. *sigh*

Keep us posted!

Sky, I'm really jazzed that you may be onto something!!!:great:

First, as Sharron says, adrenal function can be tested by testing the levels of cortisol in saliva. The test is done with a collection kit at home and should be done at least 2 times-once in the am and once before bed. It's even better to test 4 times (or more) during the day. Where your levels are, whether they rise, fall, or stay the same, will indicate what stage of function your adrenals are in. In addition, however, there are any number of symptoms which can give you big ole honking clues as to what your adrenal glands are up to.

I had my adrenal function tested a couple of years ago, but my then-Dr. didn't really know what to do with the information. A couple of weeks ago my new speciality physician told me flat out after we talked that I had extreme adrenal fatigue, but send me home with a test kit--so that we could find out how bad it really is, LOL!!!!

I won't try to list all the symtoms, but here's a couple of the books my new doc recommended I get--one of which was where I read the bit about water and adrenal function: I've listed these somewhere before, but here goes:

Adrenal Fatique: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome by James L. Wilson

The Cortisol Connection: Why Stress Makes You Fat and Ruins Your Health and What You Can Do About It by Shawn Talbott

Both are available at Amazon, and I got mine in about 3 days. Easy reads. In addition, Schwarzbein, being an endocrinologist, has a lot to say about adrenal health in her books--but I haven't had time to go back and revisit... Both of the above books have self-tests, which can give you and your physician something to talk about, although as Sharron says, most regular MD's tend not to know much about adrenal fatigue--there's either Cushing's or Addison's but nothing in between. Well, that's crazy, IMO.

By the way, you can get the test kit yourself and have the results sent to you, or have your Dr. order the kit, which is probably best if you have a medical plan. There are several sources if you're interested.

You've been through a lot, Sky. Wow. I really hope that with your new Dr. and some new and perhaps pertinant information, you can continue to improve your health. As you research further, I'd be really interested in your thoughts, since we both (and Sharron) may be in the same adrenal boat. Keep us posted!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Oh, just going to add, as a point of interest, that Dr. Wilson in the book I listed above, suggests adding 1/2 to 1 tsp of salt (yes, I'd use sea salt and yes those amounts are right) to a glass of water within an hour of getting up in the morning, and the same thing about 2pm, to head off the afternoon energy dip many people with adrenal fatigue get.

Evidently, any other water can go unsalted. But Sky, I'd be very cautious and check with your Dr. about salt since you have high blood pressure. Most people with adrenal fatigue have low blood pressure, but not all.

Oh, and Sharron, I know you are under a physician's care, but I thought I'd mention that Wilson says potassium makes adrenal fatigue worse!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

hmmm...

Well, I only take the potassium when I'm getting leg cramps. It really isn't part of my normal routine. I didn't know that though. Thanks for the heads up

The two tests I've taken were the many-times-a-day variety. I even had to wake at 3 am to do it!

What it showed the last time I took one was that I had the same adrenal function most of the day that a normal person does at 3 am (which is like nil.) When I did the 3 am test, that was the only time I had any significant adrenal function at all, and it was like the late afternoon levels of a normal person (that afternoon fatigue you talk about.) So that is why I often have troubles waking up in the middle of the night fully awake. Thankfully, that has stabilized a lot recently.

Very curious -- I tend to do my salting (sea salt only, of course) first thing in the morning and in the afternoon, but not at other times. Isn't that interesting that I would naturally gravitate towards that? God made our bodies amazingly, even when they aren't working right for whatever reason...

I'm curious about those books -- so often we hear of OVER production of cortisol. The title of the second makes me think they are talking that way? In fact, there is this "diet pill" that has become all the rage that limits the body's cortisol production. Dh misunderstood and thought it would help me because I have adrenal issues. After looking briefly into I had to tell him, "if I took that, it would probably kill me because I already have so little adrenal function as it is!!!"

Hmm...

Bren, would you feel comfortable doing a "book review" of any of those books? I'd sure be interested in hearing what you are learning about since so many of our symptoms are similar. If it is too much, please don't think I'm putting upon you. I know you have limited energy...

I'm finding this conversation quite interesting indeed!

Very Interesting, Sharron!

Yes, I'll go through the books and try to summarize some key issues--still have about half the second one to read--I've been hunting and pecking in that one. But a really brief and cheap answer on the cortisol levels in adrenal fatigue is this: there are stages--initially when our adrenals are under duress from disease, environment, genetics, stress, etc they pump out to meet the demand. If the stress never goes away, the adrenals are forced to pump out on "high" all the time, thus high levels of cortisol and the first levels of adrenal fatigue. Eventually the adrenals start becoming exhausted and cortisol production starts slowing and begin not meeting our needs. So too high or too low levels of cortisol, or not in the normal pattern are all indicative of adrenal fatigue.

Thus it's really important to know where you are before you treat.

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Yes, that makes sense. That is also what scares me about those diet products I was telling you about

I increased my salt this morning. I had decreased it considerably a while ago cuz' someone I respect went off on a tirade about my salting. He thought it was causing my problems, when in retrospect it had probably been keeping them at bay. It was after that I came down with this infection...

Anyway, I took about 1/3 teaspoon sea salt with my water this morning instead of 1/8 as I have been. It didn't burn, so apparently I needed it. (If you need explanation, Sky, just let me know.)

I've also been noticing something -- since I've been doing the more zone-like grazing I'm not having the low blood sugar issues at night that I was having. I also seem to have more energy as I always experience when I'm eating in MY Zone. Could the balance of carbs/protein/fat that is specific to our bodies functioning (as you know, my ratios are different than yours and Sky's will probably be different than both of ours!) be healing for the adrenals as well? Does the literature say anything about that? Or fat sources?

Sky, one other thing I've noticed with the adrenal issues -- I cannot have any significant amounts of processed oils (corn, soy, sunflower, etc.) without feeling it. I do a lot better with what I think of as "whole" fats like coconut oil, butter and lard.

One last thought: You mentioned eating more like 18 blocks rather than the 13 recommended. I am that way too. I think I'm around 18 as well, with the recommendation being 15. When I'm careful and get my veggies in at every meal, I always seem to lose...

I had another thought, Sky, while I was journaling. In DANDR Dr. A doesn't really talk a lot about HOW to maintain. He simply talks about adding more carbs in.

Well, you've quite successfully lost your weight and have been maintaining nicely, so you've obviously got that part right, but with the Zone balance is the main thing. My "balance" is a lot different than Bren's. She does great with the lower-fat ideas of the Zone. My body won't tolerate it. I end up with cravings like crazy whenever I try to do it. I need the higher-fat perspective of Atkins. However, I can't simply "add carbs in." I tried that at Graeme Streets urgings, and it didn't work because I didn't do it in a structured manner. For some folks that seems to come naturally -- not for me, though, I need a framework.

It was hard for me to find that framework, though. I've played around with the Zone 3 or 4 different times now. I always lose and feel great for a while, then I have cravings kick in big time. I was getting close to figuring out my ratios (as I am aware of them now -- higher fat and lower carbs) the last time (last Spring I think?) but something derailed me before I got there.

The reason I'm saying all this is because you've done so well on Atkins that it is my inclination that your ratios will probably be on the higher fat end of things like mine are. I could be wrong, but "being in the Zone" doesn't have to do with those 40:30:30 numbers -- it has to do with having great brain function and energy. At least that is what it does for me.

I hope all this discussion is helping you...

Blessings!

Just a generalization or two on your question, Sharron. The Wright book doesn't talk about individual balance, per se. However he does advocate whole foods, lower carbs, adequate protein, good fats, considering food sensitivies--in other words, or if I can twist his words a little, anything that isn't optimal is going to further stress adrenal function.

He is an advocate of snacking (suggesting optimal times for example), and eating fats, carbs, and protein together. He says that many people with adrenal issues also have hypoglycemia, which makes a lot of sense with both our sets of symptoms.....

"The adrenal hormone cortisol helps keep blood sugar at adequate levels to meet your body's demands for energy. However, when your adrenal glands are fatiqued, cortisol levels drop lower than normal. This makes it more difficult for your body to maintain normal blood sugar levels. As a result people with adrenal fatique (hypoadrenia) tend also to have low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)."

Just as an aside, I thought this was really interesting, too:

"It has been known for over half a century that about 80% of those suffering from adrenal fatigue also have a number of symptoms of low thyroid. If your adrenal fatigue has a thyroid component, but is usually necessary to strengthen both the adrenals and the thyroid similtaneously for full recovery to take place."

I think the other book actually mentions the Zone, and I'll see if I can find that on my next "PC break" LOL!

I'm tempted to try the AM and afternoon salted water starting tomorrow This is really interesting, isn't it!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Yes, that is interesting. I've been on thyroid medication (natural) and adrenal medication (also natural) but wasn't terribly successful with it. Could be there was too much else going on at the time in my body though -- I was REALLY sick then. The FM/CFS was so bad that I slept almost all of the time and couldn't barely even climb the stairs. I would literally sit at the bottom of the stairs and cry as I scooted up them one by one...

I'm so far from there now, praise God! Changing my diet has been a big factor.

btw, last time I was in to see my ND she said she wanted to do some endocrine function tests. Unfortunately, I don't have insurance for her and it is pretty spendy to go in.

The last time we thought about specifically treating my adrenals, she ended up giving me a "female formula" that has components my body can manufacture into whatever it needs. I am seeming to do well with it.

I did well with the increased salt this morning. If you are going to start salting, do so SLOWLY. You can end up with low blood pressure and serious detox if you don't.

Hmmm... So maybe this is why I keep coming back to the Zone? I haven't done very well today. My snack and lunch were not in the Zone. Breakfast was, though. It was a mish mash of leftovers though, and not something that was easily replicated!

Interestinger and interestinger :cool:

Thanks for the tip on the salt water. I will indeed go slow.

Sharron, I'm also very glad that you are doing so much better than you were. When you have any chronic disease, it can take a toll on every system, and it's really no wonder it takes so long to heal. (Wright suggests 3 months for minimal issues and a years for extreme cases....) And since we can't control everything (and are more suceptable to stress anyway) there are going to be plateaus and little regressions in the healing process, just as in our weight loss. Think about the stress you've had over the past months! You've done great, and more than that, you keep on trying to fit all the pieces together, just as I do.

I think there was a long time in my life that I wanted to find "the answer" to my own chronic health and mood issues. Truth is of course, there's no "the answer." It's way more complicated than that, because every system is related. Whew.
But I will say this, there's not one condition I've read about that's helped by junk food and a high carb diet!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Interestinger and curiouser, indeed. It seems that the more I find out, the less I know! And despite my "lightbulb" moment aabout adrenal fatigue a few days ago, the more I read about it, the less I think I've got it. I got all excited at first because it seemed I'd almost HAVE to have issues given my history, hoe w could I not? But when I study the list of symptoms (fatigue, immune problems, unrestorative sleep, depression, dizziness, tendency to gain weight in the torso, muscle weakness, allergies, slow healing) - it really doesn't apply. So as far as the excessive urination goes, I'm back to my theory about the lifetime of diuretics teaching my system to process fluids in a different way. I'm still going to bring it up with my doc though, and see what she has to say.

I still think there may be some value for me in the watercure stuff though, so my education on that continues. I'm also quite interested in the ACV threads. Meanwhile, my Zone books and ZonePerfect fish oil arrived today, so that's another step along the path.

Sharron, you've really had some rough patches, haven't you? I admire your positive approach and persistence. Blessings back at ya.

Sky

Sky, I've gone down a number of roads that turned out to be wrong in the past or only partially helpful, probably will go down a few more, but like you say, it's worth checking out, certainly.

My theory is that no information is ever wasted, anyway, so all your study over the past few days may come in handy some time, maybe to help someone else!

Well, hit those zone books and we'll be here to do a little Zonetalk anytime.

(Oh, I will mention that of the symptoms you listed, I have only three, and those not all the time )

Enjoy your reading and fishy burps!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Sky,

I have all of those -- but not all the time. It depends on how strong I am at the time, and as Bren pointed out stress level is a huge factor. It would have to be with adrenals! :eyes:

Thanks for the encouragement too. I've rather had to come to "doctoring myself" in order to get well. I've had some really good natural type docs over the past few years, but much of what I've learned has been right here on LCE and through general reading on the 'net. I'm very thankful for this free information we have. It is like having a library in my office

Keep us posted!

Just wanted to report:

I increased my salt to about 1/3 teasp 2x and 1/8 1x. I did NOT have the nightsweats that I have been having for the first time in ages! I also had better energy overall. I know that being "in the Zone" is a factor for that, but it happened when I started water curing originally as well.

I've increased it to more like 1/2 (but not quite) teasp for today. I got no burning sensation, only a very slightly salty taste when I put it on my tongue, which means I needed it.

I'm heading out for the weekend. Have a great one!