This isn't a very active forum, but I'm hoping Brenda or somebody else who's knowledgable about The Zone will check in...

I have had great success with the Atkins Nutritional Approach, dropping 50 pounds and comfortably maintaining the loss for about 18 months now. When I made the commitment to do this, I felt it was an all-or-nothing shot for me, so I have been very strict for nearly two years, never having a single bite of anything off-plan. I eat 9-12 servings of veggies a day, plenty of fresh meat, chicken, fish and seafood, good cheeses, nuts, and some berries. I have recently added an occasional Slimfast low-carb shake. My carb intake generally runs around 8-10% of my total daily calories. I have not added back in any bread or grain products, and don't really want to....if it ain't broke and all that.

Yesterday I went to a new doctor, and I liked her a lot. She believes nutrition plays a crucial role in our overall health, and that different conditions can be greatly affected by different diets. While she was impressed with my results on Atkins and supports that plan, she feels The Zone would be perfect for me. She gave me an article by Dr. Robert Steiner touting the benefits of pharmaceutical grade fish oil as part of The Zone plan. This article touched on the principles of the plan, but was mostly about the fish oil, so obviously I need to do more reading. Which books would you recommend?

The doctor thinks that by making this change I would see improvement in perimenopausal symptoms (primarly night sweats), and that the anti-inflammatory properties of the fish oil and the zone style of eating would support my cardiovascular health (I've had open-heart surgery). She also noted that I need SOME glycogen reserve to avoid dehydration - my body has never "adjusted" to all the water I drink and I tend to be somewhat dehydrated even when I drink a gallon a day - and she says I do need to raise my carb intake a bit whether I switch plans or not. She thinks The Zone would give me a little fuller look - not fatter, but a little firmer and less drawn.

My concern is that I can't imagine going up to 40% carbohydrate intake. My inclination would be to move up very gradually, trying to "ease into it" by adding something like oatmeal. But isn't this a situation where you're either in the zone or you're not? Obviously there's a reason Dr. Sears recommends the proportions he does, but would it work to try to keep the carbs to, say 20%? If I'm going to do it, I want to do it right, and I certainly don't want to add carbs without the benefits of getting into the zone, but 40%? Yeesh - scary!

I'm going to start taking the fish oil anyway, and will get ahold of some books to educate myself. I am really reluctant to mess with my metabolism now that it's so firmly and successfully adapted to very low carb. And I'm worried that it's going to feel like a low-calorie diet to me if I drop my fat & protein levels down to 30% respectively...that I'll be hungry all the time and won't be able to stick with it. Don't mean to sound fretful and negative, but after a lifetime of searching for something that would get me to my ideal weight, I really don't wanna mess it up.

Advice and encourgement please? I do want to see if I can reap the benefits the doctor suggests I might, and I realize I may have to just try it and see, but this seems almost sacreligious to me. Abandon Atkins? Perish the thought! But if there's something even better out there for me...hmmm.....

Thanks,
Sky
Atkins since 8/02
196/144/under 150

Hi Sky -
I know nothing about the zone, but do have a question about how you are eating.
How do you manage so many servings of veggies?
This is where I am really struggling in the Atkins plan. I know I need more veggies, but just don't seem to be able to find any I am interested in.
Best I can do is 3 servings a day.
What kinds of vegetables are you having, and in what forms?

Thanks for any information.

__________________
Mary Kay 1/1/04 - 232
5/19/08 (5/23/08) - sw226/(cw222)/mg210/fg160

these are what i have marykay... green beans... spinich(baby spinich fresh) in salads or sautee'd in some olive oil with sprinkle of real bacon bits.. califlower (raw)as a snack for something crunch... asparagas.. sometimes canned.. but i really like the spicy pickled kind... romaine lettuce.. bit of tomato....brocolli in stir fry.. red yellow and green peppers in salads or stirfry...brussel sprouts.. (small tender ones only) steamed with a tad of butter..cabbage (coleslaw with bit of mayo ) or usually just eaten out of a little bowl for a chunchy snack...yellow squash sautee'd in a little olive oil or in stir fry...zucchini same way...
anywho.. just a few ideas... what have you eaten? any you really dont like?

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kims SECOND journal is HERE
kims new blog
KIMS BLOG !!
SUGARFREE BLOG

Hi MK,

For a gal who never used to touch vegetables before Atkins (except potatoes and creamed corn, of course), it's amazes me, too, how many veggies I eat! A typical day for me might include a cup of mushrooms, onions, and peppers in an omelet (2 servings), a of can of green beans or spinach for lunch (considered 3.5 servings), two cups of broccoli & cauliflower mix (4 servings) for dinner, with a big salad (3-4-5?). Plus I always have a tray in the fridge of celery, peppers, cauliflower, broccoli, and cukes that I grab throughout the day.

I had to force myself to eat vegetables at first, but now I love them and actually crave things that are green. One of the techniques that's been helpful to me in losing weight and maintaining the loss is to avoid getting hungry, and the primary way I do that is to eat vegetables, freely and frequently. (In the old days, I would intentionally let myself get very hungry, "saving up" for the food fest to come because it felt so good to satisfy the hunger. I have since learned that that is the way Sumo wrestlers eat in order to add bulk - famine then feast. Yikes.) So now I try not to get hungry. Another thing that helps me is that I don't have much need for variety in my diet, and I have stopped thinking of eating as entertainment or a social event or comfort or anything much other than fuel, so I don't get "bored" with eating this way. I enjoy a dinner that's well-prepared and beautifully presented, but something off the grill with asparagus, zucchini, and a spinach salad for dinner 4 nights a week is just fine by me.

Keep plugging away at the veggies and experimenting, and hopefully you'll start developing more of a taste for them. Meanwhile, doing what you're doing seems to be working nicely, as I see you are resolutely under 200 now - congratulations!

Sky

ah.. yes sky.. cukes! and mushrooms.. bit of shredded carrot in salad..
i too used to love corn... (still might.. dont trust me with it tho..*L* )


eeeeeoooowwwwww sounds like sumu wrestlers are allowing the hormone mentioned in THIS
http://www.cbass.com/Ghrelin.htm

to allow them to gain so much... wow.. makes sense now...

__________________
kims SECOND journal is HERE
kims new blog
KIMS BLOG !!
SUGARFREE BLOG

Hi Sky! Nice to hear from you again!!!

First let me address your concerns about the 40% carbohydrate bit, which I think are very valid. Dr. Barry Sears, the originator of the Zone, said a few years ago he "rued the day" he ever used the 40% number so specifically in his first books, because early on he recognized that individuals will need to make adjustments. The 40% was based on his original work as being a good starting place for most people, and one much lower than the general public was currently eating. His first test groups, interestingly, were college athletes......By book 2, he was giving instructions on how to modify carb intake to find your own personal best percentage (he called it "tuning the carburator"). But those are the kinds of things that really never make it to the popular consciousness and live on and on--just like a lot of misconceptions about Atkins. However, in most Zone books and websites even now, 40% is recommended as a place for most people to "start," considering what most of them are probably eating now--just like we used to, LOL! Since you know your own carbohydrate metabolism, though, Sky, it makes sense to me that you might want to start out lower and work up rather than start at 40 and work down or up, which is what most zone newbies do.....

In practice, among the "old zone hands" I know in person or on various boards, the majority, especially those who have or have had a history of weight issues, or chronic illness or disease, do better on something less than 40% carb, usually making up for the difference with slightly increased fat intake. Mainly that's because in practice it's hard to get to 40% without incorporating some grains (or starches), as you've noted, and so many of us just don't do well with anything but minimal grains in our diets. In actuality the Zone (from day 1) looks amazingly like a good Atkins maintenance.

A major difference though, between Atkins maintenance and the Zone, is in the Zone's eating guidelines, which to me have become as much or more important than shooting for a specific ratio at all times. (See the sticky "Tips for Staying in the Zone." The guidelines work to stabilize insulin levels, which in turn affects weight, energy, metabolism.

Books: The original Zone book, "The Zone" (or Enter the Zone), gives one of the best scientific explanations for those who like to know "why" like I do, but does a crappy job of actually explaining how the eating part of the plan works--and that part is outdated. For investigation purposes, Sky, this is one I'd get from the library or buy second hand at most. The second Sears book, "Mastering the Zone" has a much better description of the plan and calculating and using Zone blocks if you are interested in that approach to figuring out your ratios, protein requirements, etc., and would be my recommendation. The recipes in it, however, are abominable (as they are in most Zone books, IMO).

The OmegaRX Zone and The Anti-Aging Zone are both good, but not as detailed on the actual plan itself. "A Week In the Zone" is in paperback, but is a real, real simplification of the plan and I honestly can't recommend it at all.

A good place to get your feet wet is the Zone website: www.zoneperfect.com Click on "Getting Started" and then go through the table of contents on the left. You'll get some of the same basic info as you would in "Mastering the Zone."

Another is Dr. Sears own site: www.drsears.com

What you'll notice as you do that, is that there are a number of ways to "Zone", from really simple to as precise as you wish to make it.

I have found that increasing my intake of Omega3's has had positive health benefits, and it's great to see that your Dr. is recognizing the potential positives. I used to used ZonePerfect Molecularly distilled omega3 caps--it's a good product, but I've switched the last few months to Coromega--a little burpless luxury! I do think if you are considering "pharmacological doses" of omega3's it's vitally important to get as pure a product as you can.

Gosh have I answered your questions? If not or if you have any others, Sky, I'd be really happy to answer as best as I can, and it'd be nice to have a little Zone company here. Most of our past Zoners "graduated" and went on to live (hopefully) happy ever after, LOL!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Oh, my dear Brenda, thank you! That's exactly what I was hoping to hear - that there is some flexibility in the plan, and that I should be able to ease into it. And I aappreciate the info on the books and websites, too - I'll be surfing tonight, and will likely get the books on ebay. I have also read all the posts in this forum. I'm greatly encouraged by what I'm learning, and excited about the possibility that I could be feeling even better than I already do - woohoo! And yeah, what a thrill to have found a doctor who GETS IT. She spent close to an hour just talking with me about customizing my diet and supplements - it was very cool. (When I told my previous doctor how much trouble I was having trying to lose weight (pre-Atkins), his response was "You eat too much. And you're getting old". True enough of course, but not exactly the help I was hoping for!).

Looks like I may need to order the refined fish oil, as I didn't find the "good" stuff at my local drug or HF store. Do you get yours from coromega.com? I want to start that right away while I'm learning about the other aspects of the plan.

Thanks again for the informative and encouraging response. It sounds as if my challenge is going to be more about HOW I eat than WHAT I eat, and I'm looking forward to finding out more about it.

Sky
Atkins since 8/02
196/144/under 150

Because you've already done so well on Atkins, Sky, I suspect you are exactly right. There may be some fine tuning of WHAT, and that's just what the Dr. ordered, so to speak. The HOW though, is really something that I can't recommend enough and sets the Zone apart in my mind.

As far as omega3 goes, I'm fortunate that several of the local HFS's in the area carry Coromega (and ZonePerfect) now, so I haven't had to order it. You might comparison shop Vitaminshoppe's online site: www.vitaminshoppe.com I used to order most of my exotic supplements from them because they are always at least 20% discounted from retail, some months even more, have flat rate shipping, and have a little rebate program at the end of the year. We actually have a Vitaminshoppe retail store in my area now, though. Vitamin World also carries Coromega and has some kind of frequent customer program: www.vitaminworld.com I've been in their stores, but never ordered on line. Both are reputable companies.

Very, very cool that your physician is not only responsive to your needs, but knowledgeable enough to give you some direction. Until recently, I've been pretty much on my own, but at least my family doctor was always pleased with the results. I'm now also seeing a specialty group and really am getting some things fine-tuned. It's extremely exciting!

Have fun surfing, and let me know how it goes!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

MaryKay, I keep raw veggies for nibbling all the time in the fridge. I also usually keep a bowl of precooked veggies in the fridge, even if it's only a bag of frozen veg or veg mix. Makes it quick to toss a few into an omelette or add on top of a salad, or heat up with lunch. When I'm making supper, I usually either make sure I have some leftovers, or I'll nuke some extra.

So enjoy the ones you like, and explore all the varieties and combos already prepared in bags. Makes it easy.

However, the last couple of years, I've really been introduced to more exotic faire by joining a "Community Supported Agriculture" farm. I get a "share" every week, which means I get a bag of produce every week. And ya never know what's going to be in there, because it's whatever the farm is producing. I've been forced to try some things I never would have bought on my own (like kohlrabi, LOL), and it's all been wonderful!!

You might even just go to the supermarket and pick a fresh "veggie adventure" of the week. Post your veggie in the cooking forum, and I bet you'll get a dozen wonderful recipes. Although any really good veggie is usually fantastic just steamed with a little butter and/or parmesan )

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

BC - thanks for the link to the Vitamin Shoppe...I decided to go with the Zone Perfect fish oil, and I ordered enough of it to get free shipping, plus they were offering a $5 off coupon, so all in all it was a good deal. And with that much fish oil coming, I'm committed! (I can keep the extra in the fridge, yes?)

I've been surfing the Zone website(s) and other sources, and checking into the potential benefits of omega-3s on their own. Interesting and convincing, nearly all of it. I also ordered the original Zone, Mastering, and OmegaRx from ebay. While I await my books, I am using fitday to gradually start shifting my fat-protein-carb ratios closer to 40-40-20 instead of the current 40-50-10, and making an effort to hit this balance every time I eat. For now, I'm not changing the foods I eat, just the proportions. I'll look at total intake and adding more fruit later, after I prove to myself I won't be hungry all the time if I don't eat QUITE as much meat as I'm used to.

Now that my weight is normalized and stable, I'm looking forward to seeing the benefits some dietary refinements might bring, and glad to have the LCE support.

Sky
Atkins since 8/02
196/144/under 150

Sounds like you are well on your way Sky. If I can be of help, or if you want some Zone chatter, just give me a holler.

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Sky,

I really don't have a lot to add, except that I waver between the Zone/Atkins and a slightly Paleo approach to my eating when I'm eating optimally.

A couple of zonish principles I always adhere to:
Never go more than an hour after rising without eating. I find this one is critical for my brain function!
Snacking/small meals. This one has come to my attention again with the ghreelin article Ilse posted. I feel so much better when I do this, and again, this is a zonish principle.

So, even within a typical day, I vascilate between Atkins/Paleo/Zone. I generally keep my meals more to the Atkins framework, simply trying to get veggies in at each meal. (Kudos on the veggies, btw!) My snacks -- the ones that seem to work better for me anyway -- are more Zonish.

I cannot even approach the 40% carbs, though. I think I'm more around 20% with the extra percentage being made up with fat. I cannot go lowfat. It makes my nerve damage and FM symptoms flare like crazy.

Who am I to say anything though? You've made goal and been maintaining for over a year

Again, Congrats!

Sky,

I had another thought while I was at the park with the kids this afternoon. As I sat there sipping on my water bottle, I remembered something I read recently on Dr. Mercola's site. He said that our bodies can only process about a cup of water at a time, so it would be very easy to become dehydrated if you are drinking large quantities at once.

Another thought I had was that you may actually be over-hydrating. The symptoms are the same as dehydration. The formula for how much water a person genrerally needs is 1/2 body weight in ounces of water daily. You only weigh 144 -- that is 72 ounces of water, not 132. You might consider cutting back your water consumption just a little, say down to 90 or 100 and see if the symptoms get better.

Those are my thoughts on the matter

Sharron, I think you and I both have been thinking about Sky! I was reading one of the books my new Dr. suggested this afternoon and came across this paragraph:

"Water poses a specific problem for people with adrenal fatigue because they tend toward dehydration but can easily over dilute the circulating electrolytes in their blood by drinking too much water. The balance of socium and potassium significalntly affects the symptoms experienced by people with adrenal fatigue.....therefore although they are often thirsty, drinking water may make them feel worse."

The author suggests drinking slightly salted water, Sharron, which reminded me so much of the "water cure," and very possibly why some people feel so much better with salted water when they start upping H20 intake.

Anyway, Sky, I don't know if adrenal issues are part of your picture, and most doctors won't tend to see adrenal problems, but I thought it was an interesting tidbit. And might explain why I really, really have never been able to drink as much water as many of you. I never really thought about it before, but it honestly does make me feel tired more than anything!

__________________
BC
LC Since 1998
Highest Weight 172
Current 104-108

Yes, and I DO NEED my real-salt (sea salt NOT table salt). I wasn't aware of the connection, (or did I forget it ) but I do so much better when I'm water-curing. I take 1-2 potassium tabs each night. I have severe adrenal fatigue (diagnosed on at least 3 different occassions with 3 different docs.)

I had actually thought of that as well with this post, but so many docs are so anti-salt, I hesitated to suggest it.

I do drink a lot, but not really much more than 1/2 my body weight in ounces of water daily.